The priests took virgin girls that were to be betrothed and had sexual intercourse with them. The offspring would be raised by the husband and mother as their own but would be educated in the scriptures by the priests of the temple to possibly become new priests. This way the genetics of David would remain as well as the orally and written history accounts of the Jews. Mary was a direct descendant of King David which gave Jesus the right to ascend the Jewish throne, both through Mary and through adoption by his foster father, Joseph.
Since Matthew and Luke clearly record much common material, it is certain that neither one could unknowingly incorporate such a flagrant apparent mistake as the wrong genealogy in his record. Henry M. David was born before Jesus was conceived. Work back and see where David linage was from, consider how many people orginated from Adam 1 and Eve They had more than Cain and Abel.
The lineages of both Jesus through Mary and through his adoptive father Joseph is listed in the bible. Nice try, though, but yeah, you just lied. What proof do we have of the athenticity of the writings in hthe bible? In the past years or more anyone then could have changed th efcactual original writings to their own benefit, like it is has been done about history from the past years. Jesus verified the scriptures as they existed in His era in the Hebrew temples.
Any other scriptures can be verified by Jesus through the Holy Spirit, that is why we need to know Him. I am amazed at your sense of grandeur people? Really WHO do you all think you are? Why do you think He would reveal himself to us in the Bible? To have followers? How stupid and arrogant can we be? You need proof? He WILL not be proved. Ever heard of faith. Without faith you cannot know Him. As far as any of us is concerned you can believe or you can rot in hell. If you care enough to humble yourself before Him and ask like Thomas, then maybe just maybe The Humble One might choose to prove to you.
But He will only do it to the humble. We are nolonger in that era of Myth my friend!!!! The evidence is everywhere! G-D manifest. G-D already informed us thru his Holy Prophets of this translation before it happens… Bless you Mary Heavenly Highest Council only have the total Authority to see fit among all virgins that qualifies to bear this Holy SON of G-D or in other words translated into human into this physical Universe. This is wrong. This is the moslem myth. Our God is the Holy one of Israel. Why do people kill each other in the name of god??? God is a figment of human creation, people think Jesus will return, really!!!
In time we will understand that humans will cease to exist and then no one will be left to tell the legasey…. The END……. I pray He open your eyes so you can know the truth before you die if not sorry I pity you wang long. Dear Wang, It seems you are very angry which is a heavy load to bear. Here is a good scripture for you:. Mat Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Mat For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. There are measurable chemical differences in snow formed at different temperatures, so ice cores provide a record of polar temperature going back around , years for Greenland and , years for Antarctica. God created the world in 6 days the world is only years old not like sciens make it out to be please my bothers and sister in Jesus the world are not billios and billions of Years old please do study the word more.
Test the spirits and do believe that our Lord Jesus is comeing soon and will establish his goverment on earth that is why he was greated for Rulership and He is worthy for that rulership. The world was made for His pleasure. And also for the children of God thank you for listening and Jesus bless you to find the hole thruth. The word of God is the only bibel that records the profecy acurerd. There were a profecy made in the past of the word of God and also that the profecy in the past are comeing true.
Read the word of God with the Holy Spirit and ask the spirit to help you to see the truth. My dear fellow sisters and brothers in Jesus please the time to play is over the Kingdom of God is at hand and He do love you all the ones that keeps His commandments and believe in Jesus Christ as His Son.
I rather believe in God and Jesus as His son then to wakeup some day and relize that the devil deceived me to make me think that the word of God is not. Wakeup the devil decieved the hole world in thinking that all ande every thing as to have an explanation God do not need to explaine Homself He is the creator of all. And by that I rest my case thankyou for listening my God be with you all.
I thought I was only one of very few people who actually gave that a thought. My goodness was I wrong.. And how can spirit have DNA? I am asking for help. Achamoth had no father nor male consort, but she is female from a female. She produced you without a male, since she was alone and in ignorance as to what lives through her mother because she thought that she alone existed…———-.
Thank you for this explanation. I am a saved Christian and I am studying the word of God in the holy bible. My bible study friends think that I am too questioning. I tell them that I am just growing in my faith and understanding. Thank you for answering me so promptly. Your sister in Christ, judi. A creation by God. God cannot be proved nor disproved by science,in my understanding.
If god exists… whats his QQ number or cell phone number, why didnt moses carry an ipad instead of 10 stone tablets, why take years to cerate the cell phone or the ipad, maybe god has a new phone or ipad 9 or jpad.. Actually, science can explain almost nothing, for example: 1 How does gravity work? How do we measure darkness: by the absence of light. How do we measure cold, by the absence of heat. How do we measure evil: by the absence of God. Perhaps,you did not understand what you read, or you had not done so.
I am not a geneticist or even a scientist, but I am a child of God who reads and studies the Word of God. The Scripture reference above points out that God has both male and female attributes. I am in no way saying God is a female, the Bible clearly states that God is He, however, He does have within Himself female attributes, He has to, because He created both male and female in His image. If you look at a mother she is generally very nurturing, caring. When you were a child and fell and scraped your knee, who did you run to?
Most of us would run crying to our mothers because she is the one that would scoop us up in her arms, love on us, and tend to our wounds. Now of course the enemy has twisted and perverted this within the minds and hearts of mankind, but this is how God created man and woman. Be Blessed and Be a Blessing. I question the genetic lineage in the bible connecting Christ to David. I feel that Christ can only be connected genetically by his link to Adam.
Adam was made by God and Christ was made by God. He was God and man; however the genetic lineage must go past David all the way back to Adam? We are all part of Christ and he is in all of us because we exist because God created the first man and that man is Adam. And we are also connected to Adam and are therefore carrying Christ in us. He was not conceived without sperm. The Holy Spirit provided that essence, thereby making him part human but also divine.
Lang, It seems the ones with least knowledge of what they talk about are the quickest to speak. It was interesting until they said Satan must have been just misunderstood for giving us all the gifts of things like fire, and planting, and building, etc etc. When was the last time you believed in something so strongly, you sold all you owned to possess it. Judging from your comments that situation has probably never happened to you.
If you have ever been in love, not lust, real love that you know is THE love, the one you could be with forever. You would only scratch the surface of what real love and sacrifice is. Well, you have to have it to get it. Like atoms that are similar, and can bond together to form an element large enough to see, or sized of one atom, it is the same element.
Jesus sacrifice for us molds it and shapes it so we can use it, it gives life texture and depth, and more abundance. When we connect with God, then parts of that love He has, channeled through Jesus sacrifice, combines with that element in us, and we grow more and more in love with Him, and others who also hold the same element that binds us like a three strand cord, hard to break. We needed the law, we could not keep, to understand why we needed Jesus life laid down to bridge the gap between sinful man and righteous God.
Down to where the Roman soldiers gambled for his clothes. For one person to meet every single prophecy, from generation after generation of prophets priests and kings the odds I saw once were 7,,, to 1. Everything recorded about Jesus fulfilled all of them. Major and minor. Lang there is no one here who is going to change your mind, because we have no power to change your heart. We told you what we know and how we feel. Eventually you will choose a course that you will follow, to stay on a wide path that leads to your destruction, or a narrower path that leads to salvation.
You see, if we are wrong or have misplaced our love and allegiance, when we die, well, we die no big deal. But, if we are right, and your way is wrong, you stand to lose an eternity of heaven, for an eternity of hell. I would do everything I could to get your attention to get you to stop before you crashed and burned. A lot of people been doing that here. Out of all of them there is probably one who really does care I think they all do actually so maybe you should drop all the defenses, excuses, and rationalizations and get serious.
Whether by an individual or a group. Our natures demand conflict, until you make a choice about what the conflict is really about, you find peace and you stay where that peace is. I spent 20 years in three American military services, I understand conflict. But, I found Jesus before I enlisted, and kept that peace with me always. Lang, you are not at peace, far from it. Take a rest and try to gain some long term perspective. Best wishes and God Bless. Chaplain Jerome Newland, Philippines. You can see forward but can,t see from your behind.
When you were a child you could not think like this as God restricted your thaught and as by the will of God you grown up ,you are pointing out the presence of God. Wars are going to stop and God is and Jesus is. To answer you there is none greater then God because from the beginning of genesis things were greated and today man were not there when it happend so how do they know what happend in the beginning God word went out and to this day still exsits tell me a if anyone are the age of jears old.
So how do we know about everything that exsist or who talled us to know all these things my answer to that is the word of God. Everything the word of God said will happend did happen and also the things to come are also going to happen. For listening Jesus love you and bless you. Psalms According to His Word, which He is bound by, sin will not go unpunished.
Jesus is the only way to the Father, the only way to heaven. Perhaps you should go to YouTube and watch 23 minutes in hell by Bill Wiese, it could change your mind. I live in US but over past year have been on a very unexpected rare journey that has caused me to see that my family both paternal and maternal are from the bloodlines of key individuals of Bible, Torah, and Koran. Is this even possible?
We look at Genetics in Genesis
I livr among the Lost Tribes, so lost they have no clue who they are…descendents of Jacob, Easu, and Ishmeal. I love the information to. I would like to know if we have cross in our bodies some were. The word starts with an L please let me know if you know. Thanks Tarry. May the Holy Spirit reveals more the truth to you, so you can share it all the world, so God would be glorified. Nothing at all,Amen to Jesus Christ. Jesus Crist is coming Back! Be ready. Your information is very interesting. Faith Is very important. God bless you! The church of God is the ones who do His commandments and believe that Jesus died for our sins and are in flesh and are the Son of God.
But those that do not that do not love Him and the truth is not in him and is lier. The church is the children and chosen ones of God. Earthly churches is under the devil rulership whithout them even knowing it. The church is not a building, nor is it a stated religion per se… It is comprised of the true followers of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. So Spirit of God is different from Adam and Jesus. Dear alzayton, In Christianity, Adam was formed from dust and made flesh and called the first Adam; Jesus also became flesh and was called the last Adam.
The Bible also says that Jesus, the last Adam, was a life giving Spirit. This means that He has the power and authority to restore us to our original DNA which is immortal and free from mutations. Jesus is the resurrection and the life. There is no end to human biased human speculation. There is human biased speculation and then there is teaching from the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things. Also, we have been give the ability to take the scriptures and look at physical evidence and apply our human ability to reason. What an honor it is to be able to reason.
Who can find the remains of either Jesus or Adam? No one can ,and so how can anyone be sure that the DNA of Jesus and of Adam is the same…this is just speculation and nothing else…people always like to come up with theories that will tickle the ears of gullible foolish gentry. Adam was created by God without male female interaction and Jesus was also created by God without male. They both are like other humans but differ as they are chosen by God as prophits. If we suppose Jesus is a god then Adam is more suitable to be called god.
If Jesus was just a profit then I wonder if with all our sins if we would have been alive today was it not for Jesus the Son of God to died for us on the cross then we would have never got frogiveness for our sins. Jesus is not a profit He is the Son of God. Seek and you will find ask and it will be given unto you Jesus the Son of God loves you thankyou for listening Jesus bless you and that you will see the truth. The article was just another unfounded interpretation of the the bible.
Every stated claims were true because the bible says so. I will be more convinced if it is supported by a peer reviewed scientific facts and evidences instead of a vicious circling bible verses. The connection of the two maks a lot of sense to me. God bless. Y gracias por compartirlo con todos. God bless you all! I somehow find the issue of whether Jesus is indeed God, and now, the present issue whether He is bound to Adam or vice-versa, thought-provoking BUT Science has ceased to disturb me.
The life i have lived so far I am now 76 yrs old , has made Jesus — God — a reality to me. GOD is everywhere. Thank you for your comment. However, the younger generations want answers and we are showing that the Bible is in concert with genetics and the genetics are in concert with the Bible. Yes, i agree with you,science is used to try people to think different then the reality, wen there is nothing you can not get anything.
The teaching of Darwin is interesting, but used by Lucifer to confuse the human being. But everybody have theyre own responsebility to their own life! When the time is there we shall find out, and the time is soon coming! God God…created. After reading the above text, I am getting another step closer to this living God of ours. He is indeed everything! How can a man or man like creature make a limitless universe, with sound governing laws that are valid at quantum and cosmos scale?
Thus either Jesus had to be a human or God. There seems no DNA analysis in this article but this is only a blend of baseless qualitative arguments. Please first think deeply then ask questions! Interesting the way you try to explain about Jesus and God, the same we can do with your believe. God is not an protestant, katholic,or moslim. He is our father like you are my brother. But can you understand this? Thinking deeply, why? Ask God to open your eyes when you realy love and believe Him, and you shall read things later on in an very simple way in the Old Testament.
The only way to tell if a book is the book of God is by the prophesy. If it is always right, it may be from God, but it must be percent. However, if the book is ever wrong, it is not from God. The book of God never needs to be ammended or corrected. We believe that the Bible is the only book that meets this criterion. In other words, you, me and all others including all forms of life as we get to discern, are HIS Expression regardless of gender, size or form free from the encumbrance of sex, physique or time.
Bible is the book of god but people have changed it for thier benefits,now we can say that it is not in original shap when ever it was reveled. Actually, I disagree and can prove my point. The Bible was verified as truth and accurate by Jesus. He read from the Hebrew scriptures as they existed in the Jewish temples at that time. He found no fault with them and every time He read from them, He indirectly approved them.
Those of us who study Hebrew realize that the scriptures Jesus read and our modern Bibles are very close in meaning. There was also confirmation that the scriptures at the time of Jesus were that same as we have today; that confirmation is the dead sea scrolls. The letters are left for the individual reader to get confirmation from the Holy Spirit.
So, we have much confidence in the Bible. Let me just remind you that God gave all power and glorie to His Son and may I also say that the quran sori to say also leave God the Son out of it. And that is what He was greated for. Wars and evil took over the world. The quran is a hebrew bible and in my opion the Jews did not exsept Jesus as the Son of God. That is way I myself will not exsept the quran.
Its a man made version. Look it up thank you for listening Jesus loves you. Man thinks God knows. U said man made the laws. Where did the laws come from? Where did humans come from? Where did the universe come from? Were were made in the image of God. Therefore,we look like God! We are each of us, Gods. Jesus said He was God and so are we. Look it up in the Bible. It says that. Jesus said that we could all do everything He did. If we had enough faith, we could walk on water. Ann, Thank you for your comment.
I would like to inject one small point to what you said which is important. This is why the Bible teaches the importance of being in Christ. God is so powerful and sinless. Above all He created us, but no one can bring the almighty to being. He is the source of all power.
We are the effects while He is the cause of our being. How on earth can we be Gods! Besides Jesus was very humble to tell us about his position in relation to the Almighty. He was clear enough to show there difference. Just open your mind to understand the truth. Please let me inject that the Hebrew word for gods is actually Elohim. If you think about this it means that we do not become independent gods, but rather in Him, in Christ.
Life is a choice. How about all of you including the writer stop explaining Jesus scientifically? Christianity is by faith and the more you explain God, the more your faith will dwindle. The Book of Mormon should be read anyway required to dodge falsification by empirical evidence! The statement of mine you quote was made 10 years ago. Technology has advanced considerably over the decade and I have qualified my outdated statement.
I did this about 2 years ago on my blog. The quote is the first two sentences of a larger paragraph. Unfortunately apologists have chosen not to quote the rest of the paragraph. Why do you think they left off the rest Mike? If a small group of Israelites, say less than thirty, entered such a massive native population, it would be very hard to detect their genes today.
However, such a scenario does not square with what the Book of Mormon plainly states and with what the prophets have taught for years. By the time of the final conflagrations around AD, the Israelite populations numbered in the many hundreds of thousands if not millions. There is not a single mention in the text of groups of people living in ancient America, other than the Jaredites, Lehites and Mulekites.
All three population groups had very large populations. It is hardly surprising then that Joseph Smith and all other church leaders have regarded Native Americans to be the descendants of the Lamanites. Mesoamerican apologist Daniel Peterson immediately seized on the bolded portion of my statement, proclaiming widely in apologetic circles that Southerton has conceded that DNA is unlikely to ever be able to detect Lehite DNA. My comment was a reasonable observation at the time given the limitations of the mitochondrial and Y-DNA studies, but it is no longer correct.
Lehi and his small band colonize a restricted region of the Americas. Their Middle Eastern nuclear DNA would have spread, over the last 3, years, throughout adjacent populations like a drop of ink in a bucket of water. At the very least their genes would have spread over many hundreds of kilometres. It would be exceedingly unlikely that their genomic DNA would go extinct and scientists exploring the genomes of Native Americans would stumble on it if it was there.
But apparently the Lamanite generation, along with their genes, are nowhere to be found beyond the pages of the Book of Mormon. We now have the technology to screen , DNA markers from across the entire genome. These people have over 40, ancestors 10 generations ago and over 40 million ancestors 20 generations ago. Clearly many will be the same individual, but they represent a pretty comprehensive sampling of the Mayan population. The sensitivity of the newer genomic technology is vastly higher than mitochondrial DNA.
Best of all, it is accessible to everyone from Ancestry. The last sentence is really the same qualifier just rephrased as the qualifier in your first statement 10 years go. If a small group of Israelites, say less than thirty, entered such a massive native population….
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding! Delete away Mr. Ash, but why? The consequence is a stock for laughter and unseriousnessness. Why do you want to snip out the telomeres of history? Thought experiment? Faith gene missing? To be insulting? Why try and delete what every Mormon from Tierra del Fuego to Kolob knows?
Holland, Oct. Elder Holland was speaking to your argument Mr. My credentials: Faithful son of god in the pre-existence. Melchezidek Priesthood holder. Singer of primary songs. The Church used to boast that it had published over million copies of the Book of Mormon as evidence that the Book of Mormon was spreading across the earth. I suppose the same thing could be said of the temples being built all over.
I think they do it to make it seem that prophesy is being fulfilled. After listening to some of the Mormon Stories interviews about the tactics missionaries and more particularly the leaders have resorted to get converts to in South America and England. Those in the Hitler youth were so indoctrinated and full of Hitler worship, and fanaticism that they could not be convinced of any wrong doing on their part at all. I see the same level of indoctrination and bleary eyed devotion here in the LDS faith.
Over time, one loses their ability to think critically at all. Laban called. Since it appears there are no Lamanites left he wants to know if he can have his head back? Seriously, though — apologists can never win on science. All they do is create a progressively smaller logic box for themselves; they need to embrace the mythos fully and abandon the logos or they will disappear into a singularity. John Dehlin sympathizes way too much with those that are hurt by the church rather than focusing on the positive things that come out of the church.
I guess his mission in life is to minister to the disaffected, but while drinking out of the bitter cup… he became bitter himself. It is such a horrific experience. They generally were giving some assignment which caused them to research the facts all the more to be even more committed and faithful. I was taught the same thing about Sandra and Jerold Tanner, that they were evil and associates of the devil.
Are Alien Messages Encoded in our DNA? | Ancient Origins
I watched the interview John did with Sandra and decided to meet her. Talk about a sweet, knowledgeable lady. Has the Church offered any apologies for besmirching and maligning the characters of these people. I have emails from Michael Ash where he specifically says that most Church leadership, Stake Presidents, Bishops, most all of the General Authorities have not much more than a seminary or institute level of understanding of Church history and the scriptures. I suspect if anyone would know, he would.
I would suspect that if these men were receiving direct revelation, it would be them writing the essays, and if the DNA issues were questionable or in error, where is the direct revelation to white out our concerns and give us some direct, plausible answers. I think with all of the information now available, the days of complete mindless obedience with the members is over. Michael, you are rapidly building the reputation of a man with no answers. What i saw was constant appeals to potential loopholes but nothing upon which to hang a genuine case.
Your piece above is the same. In this podcast you have genuine bonafide experts in their fields making it absolutely clear that the former LDS arguments that Lehites were the principle ancestors of the American Indians as declared in the BOM and subsequently throughout most of Mormon history is utterly wrong from the standpoint of genetic evidence. Rather than address these points and demonstrating how these findings are incorrect, you follow the now common LDS apologetic path of abandoning the former narrative completely, and looking for what appears to be little more than an empty excuse as an avenue that might keep mormon hopes afloat.
I live in the UK. As a child i grew up just a couple of miles from a Roman fort. In school i was taught about Rome and the Roman occupation of Britain. I visited the fort and saw the reconstruction of roman weapons based on exact pieces discovered on that site. I see Roman inscriptions, and roman swords and coins on a regular basis. In fact, most towns in the Uk have a museum with some form of historic display that will contain roman artefacts. What i see here is nothing at all matches up with the BOM narrative. I can find volumes of direct evidence of Romans in Britain, including shopping lists and letters home.
Items that directly correspond to the Roman Britain narrative i can find in classical works. Yet for the BOM i find no mention of wars that correspond with Alma, no mention of a banner held forth by a captain, or of Christ visiting the Americas and calling 12 Apostles for a religion that went national just a thousand or so years ago. Really, there is a huge raft of information and evidence on circa 30, roman legionnaires in Britain, but Zero to conclude the Nephites and their culture ever existed in the Americas — despite the fact that as a group they were many many multiples larger than the roman force in Britain.
The feeble nature of your counters, attempting to claim corresponding phrases, such as Tapir for Horse, or club for sword, is preposterous in nature. Because of this, because of these many issues, it is reasonable to adopt a skeptical position. When one places all of the issues in a train of evidence, the train is such that it paints a concerning picture.
That a being like a God, an omniscient being, would have a plan to save mankind contingent upon a historical narrative fraught with issues and claims that face constant retreat? What kind of God and plan is this? I ask this seriously. I ask as a genuine searcher, as someone who spent most of their life as LDS and on the apologist side until through serious and genuine research and not just giving my faith the benefit of the doubt i came across LDS document after document that took what i had been told was anti mormon and made it mormon history. It was working toward appearing as a moral and family centred movement.
It spent money on that facelift and appeared to have put its past in the form of Polygamy, and Racism towards black people behind it. Now, today, that position is undermined. Today Latter-Day Saints are forced to accept things that 20 years ago most Latter-Day Saints would have described as immorality in the first instance. That a man can meet secretly with the wife of another man whist the husband is absent and persuade that wife to enter into a secret relationship with him which in the case of Brigham Young is verifiably sexual.
That a married adult male aged 38 can pressure a minor aged 14 into a mature life long relationship commitment using the duress of a 24 hour timeframe tied to eternal consequences, and again leaving open the door that it could have been sexual. That a leader can in public in both speeches and in writing consistently lie to members and the world at large and deny that plural marriage exists, and do so in the name of the lord! Those vestiges of hope for the moral evolution and future of mormonism are shredded by the historical realities the church now faces.
How on earth does that omniscient God expect genuine seekers to swallow all of this as his will? The faith bar is so high as to render it blind faith. Such a history will always be a huge stumbling block for mormonism. When one considers this train of evidence, it renders the LDS story as a whole less likely to be true. As a life long member and RM, i know exactly what this refers to. It refers to a feeling of peace and a contentment related to the core values and principles as espoused by key LDS texts. It relates to a warmth and a hope based on the idea of the plan of salvation. This spiritual experience is common in many faiths, not least of which includes a number of LDS sects, all with members testifying of the truth of their prophets via the same spiritual mechanism.
And movements within Islam that bear a near identically worded testimony for how they know the Quran is Gods final word through is prophet Mohammed. Because multiple groups are able to make the same claim, it undermines any argument to the exclusivity of the mechanism as a means to determine exclusive truth. Further, since we know these experiences can be manufactured, even unconsciously, then is it not more reasonable to place actual evidence on a higher footing than claims to spiritual feelings?
But if we do instead appeal to actual proof we find Mormonism is no better off than most faiths and worse of than some based on the grand nature of its claims. So Michael, in closing, you have no actual evidence.
Are Alien Messages Encoded in our DNA?
All of your arguments would work as well for Scientology as for Mormonism. I would ask you in all sincerity to please think carefully of the importance of this claims. You may well be assisting in persuading people who can barely afford to do so to engage in acts of sacrifice in the vain hope of something blessing that simply does not materialise.
And you will be party to leading youth in a path against the developments of science. Mike Ash, I am trying to understand if your response is intentionally remedial or if it was true sarcasm. It is really time for a true reality check. The apologists are living proof the only tool left in the shed is a double down hammer. The sustainability of apologetic defense to maintain any shred of historicity will go to zero on a long enough timeline. Is that why early Saints got it wrong, because their prophet Joseph and even God himself seems to not have been clear on who Lamanites were?
There is no record of the Lamanites, only of the Nephites, so it is impossible to know how much the intermixed with the indigenous groups. The twenty Lehites arrived on a continent that, we know from archaeology, had millions of people. At the time they arrived they represented 0.
That introduction was not on the gold plates. I am not obligated to believe every introduction to the BOM ever written, even if written by an apostle. I do believe the actual text of the BOM, and it does allow for mixing with local groups. It is true that it does not explicitly mention it. No where did I say that it does. Not once. Is that not a problem? Do you not find that odd? No, because I would assume the mixing to have happened early on and afterwards for them to all be known by the group name.
We do not have the historical writings for the first years manuscript pages , we only have the religious record. Because those would be covered in a different kind of history, and one covering the relevant time period. And it came to pass that because they were dark and loathsome and not white and delightsome like us we mingled not our seed over much with theirs with the exception of the Hebrew holiday of May Day in which orgies we celebrated in the Reformed Egyptian Manner.
It seems odd that God would have allowed them to be stolen when according to you they could have done so much to explain the silliness that followed. Thank you for so comprehensive and qualified review of these articles. The church smoke screens put up is very effective among Mormons that believe that truth comes only from church sources. This is the same Mormon writing who abridged the Book of Mormon, so this would have been written in the 4th century CE.
Given this statement then I think should be able to agree that some large portion of the population of the Book of Mormon stayed separate from any of the indigenous people for a very long time. In that case then it seems even less likely that their DNA could have just been lost. Also, keep in mind Mormon is considered by some to potentially be some kind of royalty. We should not expect what applies to potential royalty to apply to the population at large. Also, the Nephites were killed off, and any that survived would likely have intermarried from then on with Lamanites or other indigenous people.
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We should not assume that Lamanites did not mix with indigenous peoples during much of the time covered by the Book of Mormon. We do not have a detailed record of the Lamanites even during Book of Mormon times we also do not have a detailed record of the first years or last years of the Nephites. Were not Ishmael and his family Hebrews? Presumably, the Nephites, at least during their righteous times were also goodly parents, preserving the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians among their descendants, for about years, down to and including the very last Nephite, Moroni.
For about a thousand years, Jewish learning and Egyptian writing were preserved by the Nephites. First, one thought on the lack of detail in the small plates. That should tell us a bit about how little secular history is in the record. Before that they say they have cities, but they never say how many or where they are located relative to anything. Perhaps only the record keepers did and the society used a different script or maybe even a different language.
I think there are examples of that elsewhere, and scriptures such as Mosiah teaching his sons could support that interpretation. You mention that archaeology has not found Nephite writings. Another thought is would we recognize Nephite script if we saw it. I know you are well intentioned, but you are basically making excuses, blindly speculating.
Please allow me to explain:. There are 26 known Mayan languages. None of them reveal anything thus far that relates to events in the BOM. They do talk in detail about the Mayan religion. They talk about Mayan people, Mayan events, the Mayan calendar. They tell us an awful lot in fact about the Mayan civilisation.
This is comparable to asking if perhaps the Romans might have been Lehites? Well, we would look at their writings — of which there is a huge abundance. We can read up on their religious beliefs, upon their system of governments, on the writings of leaders like Marcus Aurelius, we could read on Tacitus, or Cicero. Now add to that the DNA. Because of that, it really is the wise thing to do to adopt the skeptics position. To simply withhold the benefit of the doubt.
To ask that Mormonism meet at least a basic evidentiary standard in light of the demands they make on members, and the size and nature of their exclusivity truth claims. My point here is that many members are not remotely genuine truth seekers. Just look at Michael Ash, he actually has nothing in the plus column.
All he has is excuses. All of this is the argument of defeat and retreat. Michaels, in not the position of a genuine truth seeker. There is no pride in this, nothing to defend. I just need to follow the argument where it leads. There is no Lehite DNA, because right now, just about everything confirms Joseph made the story up some how. It really is nothing more than that. And, if God happens to be reading, he can seek to punish me for being logical, for being a genuine searcher if he wishes, but that would say more about the nature of LDS God than it does about how evil i might be for not wishing to make a mistake.
We know who all the Roman emperors were and a lot about their lives. We do not, afaik, have a single book written by the Maya during BOM-times. We have some relatively short inscriptions on an occasional monument from a few cities. We do not have detailed accounts that were written during BOM-times for any of the things you mention. Anything extensive comes much later. So, what you are saying is there is zero actual evidence for the BOM to be found in history or archaeology.
Yet you believe it all anyway. That was one of my key points and you just confirmed it for me. Nothing in MesoAmerica points to a Nephite or Lamanite civilisation. Some Captain was always writing an epistle to another Captain. Or a King wrote to a Captain or another King. Yet somehow the only people who ever wrote anything down were the scribes who scratched their words onto the BoM plates.
No one wrote on a wall. No one wrote on some sort of parchment, even just to write an inventory of their home or some such mundane things that we might write about in our daily lives today. Maybe you can lose a sword, but how do you lose the smelting pits? I just groaned. Presumably they did write on various things. Some of their records might even have been found already. Here are a couple things to keep in mind:. Just because Nephite BOM scribes wrote in an Egyptian-derived script does not mean the rest of the society did.
For a period of years the Spanish destroyed thousands of Maya books to the point where we only have three or so remaining. We could have easily had zero remaining. It seems plausible that the Lamanites may have destroyed many of the records of the Nephites. We have English proper names in the BOM. We can only guess at what the original names were. I think we have very few original proper names written during BOM time period for Mesoamerica, and perhaps none that we know the original pronunciation for.
So people claiming we have no writings mentioning Nephites or Nephite cities is not particularly damning in my opinion. As I mentioned in the parent, even if we found reformed Egyptian we might not recognize it as such. I think most Mesoamerican scholars would admit that there were literate peoples not necessarily the average person but scribes and such in Mesoamerica during Nephite times, and that we have almost none of the writings that at one time did exist.
So there is zero evidence. As an outside observer, I have to say that these apologist arguments are not getting curiouser and curiouser, they are just void of any intellectual integrity. We questioners are all on some kind of double-secret intellectual probation.
Forget Mesoamerica, why not Atlantis? Good luck to you all. For example, they believe the Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel. Well, DNA testing shows that is not true. That is all you need to know about him. I wonder why that is. Talk about trying to control the message. This is kind of what I expected for responses, so thanks for not disappointing me. So like you, when they encounter it for the first time in LDS-critical material, it can be quite shocking and can appear to be a solid scientific blow against Mormonism. Following this comment, Michael Ash, another DNA non-expert member, now takes it upon himself to educate the uneducated upon a subject in which he is not educated.
Well done! You are very aware of the shaky foundation of your position and have no desire whatsoever to engage with critics of mormonism so you use obscure posts like this as a scapegoat. In your post above, you in no way engaged the commentary of these experts and simply claimed that they misrepresented you. We all read your article, we all listened to their commentary and we all know that they in no way misrepresented your views, they simply put them into context and articulated why they are untenable.
Because you are very aware of this, you in no way attempted to challenge them, you simply cried foul. I love how apologists know that the BOM is historically, logically and scientifically untenable if read at face value, so they abandon this approach. Anybody with the capacity to think critically is not fooled for a second by you or any other apologist trying to pull the wool over their eyes with these tactics. Especially in light of the fact that is claimed to have been translated not by any technique known to man, but rather by the gift and power of God?
It was very plain to the founders of the church, modern day apologists are the only persons calling for any other type of reading. So much for prophets I guess.
You are obviously not making the first claim and are obviously unable to make the second claim. But how much time and respect and engagement would you give to a member of the Flat Earth Society? That is what FAIR is to me. Intellectually dishonest, willfully ignorant, and not open to evidence, but closed to a single, highly dubious thesis. How do the Saints of the Latter Days deal with the Antroopocene era?
Do Mormons even know what the Anthropocene is? Can The Mormon Conjecture overcome the Anthropocene with prayer and testimony? Are the Latter Days of our own making? The crash test dummy has been thrown under the bus repeatedly to some dramatic effect. The followers of such imaginings are fated, fated to reap what was sewn Oh so many years ago. Mormon Exceptionalism may be a bridge too far for domination of The Mormon World to flourish. It would have been nice to have received more science and less rhetoric.
It is understandable that Jamie has issues with reconciling what she was taught with new, emerging positions, but some of us who are not apologetics and who, like Jamie, want to be given credit for thinking, are not bothered as much by such inconsistencies and simply want the facts absent histrionics. Your apologetic approach has watered down Lehite blood lines to the point of non-existence. Which actually makes perfect sense. One in a hundred? And there one more problem…the Science of Genetics is not standing still.
You can hold all of the fights you like in empty areas and declare your apologetic arguments world champions while the rest of the world just shakes their collective heads at the absurdity of it all…. I am curious to know the academic credentials of Mr. Ash or Dr. Ash if I have overlooked an academic doctorate in order to support the credibility of his article, follow up posts and interpretation of DNA science, archaeology, anthropology, etc.
Thanks for this recording. Arguing about DNA in Lamanities with apologists is a total waste of time because there were no Lamanites. Finding out when we die is a no-lose program for LDS Inc. I wonder if Mr. Ash would put his credentials to use as an electronics salesman and explain to us why the DNA of people who supposedly migrated to the American continent around B. A bachelors of any kind? Does he even know what a DNA sequencer looks like? One of my top top two Mormon Stories broadcasts. If adults can hear this and still believe in Mormonism, they deserve to waste their lives living in Fantasyland!!!!!!
Not get them truthful, that is impossible. Find Zelph:. Has anyone seen this story from National Geographic about native americans having west eurasian origins? Chad, are you referring to the DNA of Eurasians who migrated to the American continent 17, to 24, years ago rather than a few hundred or thousand years B. I am referring to that…. You know what would be a great podcast is if John could get Rod Meldrum. He believes in the Heartland geography for the book of mormon.
I also read they purchased some land opposite the side of the Mississippi river from Nauvoo due to their strong belief in that area being Zarahemla. They were supposed to be excavating that area hoping to find a temple there from what I understand. I listened to the full podcast. I just posted this link while I was listening to the podcast and before it was mentioned during the podcast. One thing to keep in mind……. Less than understand the true history. Most people will mentally check out when it comes to DNA talk cause it goes over their head.
I admit I truly do not fully comprehend it. I have to take some time to truly study it in order to understand it. Or a group of Jaredites of 8 barges. What if the BOM voyagers married natives in the very first generation and in each successive generation they married in a way to optimize DNA dilution? What if they avoided intermarrying for a few generations? Are you familiar with the Lemba Tribe in Africa?
Their oral traditions had long claimed a connection with Israel sound familiar to BoM claims Only difference is that their DNA proved their claim to be true. Serious question. The uselessness of responding in detail to most of the comments here is evident by the posts that amount to little more than ad hominem, appeal to authority, and an obvious unfamiliarity of what has already been written on this topic for well over a decade. Ironic how believing LDS apologists are charged with cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias when this is richly apparent in the posts here presented.
It never ceases to fascinate me that a number of critics and I know critics to the contrary are loud in condemning LDS apologists for the very traits which they, the critics themselves, are guilty of. Like I said in my original post, it would be fascinating study to explore this depth of hypocrisy on a psychological level. Take the example of questioning my credentials. Do their academic credentials in genetics give them unique qualification for interpreting the BoM text? In the case of someone like Dr. Michael Ash, you should research and write the psychological study you desire regarding LDS critics.
Ash, could you share your academic and professional background. Well, Reuben, why do my credentials matter? If I had the requisite credentials would you believe my arguments? If yes, why? If no, why not? To directly quote Dr. Southerton and I agree on this point unless he wants to disavow his former position. Do you believe both of us now? Southerton qualifies his claim with the following:. Does Dr. If so, why? If not, why not? As someone who claims to respect science and be a believer in Mormonism, I would expect you to understand the significance of authority when speaking authoritatively on subjects that require subject matter experts.
Furthermore, as a published writer who tries to engage in the intellectual debate surrounding Mormonism, I would think you would have the conscience of mind to provide your credentials upon request since you clearly lack the presence of mind to do so before hand when those requests are relevant to your authority on the subjects you claim to write about. I tried to find your credentials in when I first came across your writings with the des news, and was surprised that a basic background component to your bio was missing.
This conversation and your clear dodge on the question seem to reinforce that. Erick, so anyone who reports on a work, topic, issue, or discovery, must have the necessary credentials to report and comment. So in commenting on my writings, you obviously have the necessary credentials as does everyone else who has posted here? I think of him as a very intelligent and educated scholar on Mormon issues. Some things I agree with, some things not. He has been quoted by a number of critics through the years.
As far as I know, however, his academic credentials on Mormon-related issues are no better than mine. Southerton has the expertise to discuss the genetic issue but so do Drs. Perego, Butler, Whiting, etc. While most critics would like to argue to the contrary, the fact is that Southerton has as much of a pony in this race as does Perego. Both parties can be qualified scientists who approach and interpret the data according to other factors in their worldview.
If the argument sounds good to you, great. I have a problem, however, with those who claim that if we disagree although our disagreements are backed by at least as much scholarship and scientific data that we are deceptive lying hacks. If she disagrees with the pro-LDS interpretations of the science which I reported fine.
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Do your best. When you claim that I think that DNA science is bunk, or that those who have questions are morons, then I take issue with the false accusations. Back to the credentials. As you correctly asserted, Brent Metcalf is a highly-respected researcher within Mormon studies, and does not possess any formal academic credentials in that field. All true, as far as I know. But, I have never known Brent Metcalf, when asked about his credentials, to refuse to answer the question or belittle those who deign to ask about them. As others have pointed out, in your article you reference the concerns of members who are not DNA experts.
By implication then, you are an expert, and that makes the inquiry fair. As a juror, in assessing the credibility of those expert witnesses, why would it not be relevant to you to learn that the medical examiner was actually an auto mechanic and had never performed an autopsy, that the ballistics expert had never handled a gun in his life, or that the DNA expert was actually a mortgage broker? So, the point is not that your argument or Dr.
The point is that it is relevant, among other factors, in assessing the credibility of the arguments. An argument should stand on its own merits, not if the argues has some manufactured group think credentials. Elder Holland was speaking to your argument. My credentials: faithful son of god in the pre-existence.
Melchezidek priesthood holder. PR Newswire. Retrieved 16 March Grail Seekers. Nostra - Bizarre News Penguin Books Ltd. The Real Da Vinci Code. Channel Four Television. Retrieved 28 March National Review. BBC Two. Conspiracy theories. List of conspiracy theories. Attitude polarization Cognitive dissonance Communal reinforcement Confirmation bias Locus of control Mass hysteria Paranoia Psychological projection.
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Of course there's not much harm in thinking that Jesus was married nor are these authors the first to suggest it , or that his descendants were King Pippin and Charles Martel. But there is harm in strings of lurid falsehoods and distorted reasoning. The method bends the mind the wrong way, an insidious and real corruption. The Templar-Grail myth… is at the heart of the most notorious of all the Grail pseudo-histories, The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail , which is a classic example of the conspiracy theory of history… It is essentially a text which proceeds by innuendo, not by refutable scholarly debate… Essentially, the whole argument is an ingeniously constructed series of suppositions combined with forced readings of such tangible facts as are offered.